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I passed the CA bar exam! Wheee! 56.1% passed this time around. I feel a little special.
Okay--actually, it feels AWESOME!
Now I need to get out there and fight the good fight.
I am looking for mentors and advice from you seasoned attorneys out there. Any feedback is welcome! I realize I am staring at the sheer wall of the learning curve and have yet more dues to pay.
I have applied at a couple legal aid offices as well as a law firm.
Does anyone know if law firms are receptive to folks wanting to work humane hours? If I do get an offer I am going to see if I can negotiate less pay for fewer hours. Anyone out there working at a law firm? How do you like it?
Okay--actually, it feels AWESOME!
Now I need to get out there and fight the good fight.
I am looking for mentors and advice from you seasoned attorneys out there. Any feedback is welcome! I realize I am staring at the sheer wall of the learning curve and have yet more dues to pay.
I have applied at a couple legal aid offices as well as a law firm.
Does anyone know if law firms are receptive to folks wanting to work humane hours? If I do get an offer I am going to see if I can negotiate less pay for fewer hours. Anyone out there working at a law firm? How do you like it?
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Re: Shouting it from the mountain!
Mon, November 26, 2007 - 4:13 PMFirst off, congrats!
"Law firm" is a nebuous term, as it could mean anything from a one-person shop to mega-multinational firm - like in "The Firm," only even more soulless.
So, yes, a big firm want you to bill x hours a year. Smaller firms may require fewer hours (or not even a hours requirement!). Smaller firms may also be more willing negotiate a hourly pay rate instead of requiring billable hours. These are things you would ask about in an interview. Another possibility would be contract work.
Public interest/public sector work also have more reasonable work expectations. You'll probably end up making more money than the average person your age, but much less than your fellow newbie lawyers. And school loans is something to consider. -
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Unsu...
Re: Shouting it from the mountain!
Tue, November 27, 2007 - 2:14 PMCongrats on passing the bar. It is a great feeling, isn't it? I was actually somewhat surprised to see that the pass rate was so "high" this time around. I passed when it was something like 35% so .... well, I am glad that you passed! Congrats!
I agree with Weazie regarding the terms "law firm". Smaller firms often don't have "billable hours" requirements, but still may require a long day because of the amount of work that you will be expected to take on. Some small firms, however, have very good hours - off at 5 pm. And definitely - public sector and non-profits - good hours. :)
Best of luck. -
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Re: Shouting it from the mountain!
Tue, November 27, 2007 - 2:43 PMI had a roommate who worked a smaller plaintiffs-side firm. She was salaried, and had decent (for a lawyer) hours. But when they were knee-deep in litigation prep (with a trial date or summary judgment motion looming), everyone stayed late. (Which is not all that different from public sector/public interest.) -
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Re: Shouting it from the mountain!
Tue, November 27, 2007 - 3:08 PMThis is very encouraging. Thanks guys.
The other issue is, I went to law school in Minnesota. Although I was in the top 25% of my class, I look at the associates who are at these firms and they are mostly cum laude from Hastings. I wonder if I stand a chance. I am applying anyway, but trying not to get my hopes up. -
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Re: Shouting it from the mountain!
Tue, November 27, 2007 - 3:29 PMAhhh, Hastings.
As an alum, I can say the great (only?) benefit of going there is that it is an excellent feeder for the FiDi big firms.
You may have to do some marketing on your school's ranking (esp. viz a vis Hastings) in your cover letter. (As our career counselor LOVED to inform us, in the Bay Area, you are competing not only with Berkeley and Stanford grads, but everyone from those Big Name schools that want to live here.) -
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Re: Shouting it from the mountain!
Wed, November 28, 2007 - 10:40 AMWell, at least I'm not back in Minneapolis!
The job market hear is much softer. My friend who when to COLUMBIA was unemployed for 4 months. Crikey!
I have lots and lots of legal work experience at least, and did clerk for a judge on a volunteer basis this past year.
Are there any firms in particular you might point me at? I am still trying to get a feel for the players here. I have become interested in consumer fraud/predatory lending/anti-trust and class actions recently. Most of these are handled by the mega firms, I have noticed.
Any colleagues of yours that are particularly happy at their firms or places of employment? -
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Re: Shouting it from the mountain!
Wed, November 28, 2007 - 2:14 PMI'm not too familiar with the firm scene.
I would assume you are looking for plaintiffs side work in those fields. While there are many big firms doing that, several smaller firms are also out there doing the same thing (but perhaps not on the same scale). Prolly more flexible on salary/hours as well.
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Unsu...
Re: Shouting it from the mountain!
Sun, December 2, 2007 - 5:23 PMThe bigger the firm, the bigger the hourly rates, and the bigger the pay, the bigger the hourly billing requirements, stated or unstated.
There are few exceptions to this rule.
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Unsu...
Re: Shouting it from the mountain!
Sun, December 2, 2007 - 6:05 PMMy experience with hours at law firms is that most of them expect new lawyers to prove themselves by, among other things, working their asses off .
After you have proven yourself, they may let you cut back to a more humane billing requirement or case load. That depends on the firm.
I consistently worked 60 hours a week during my first two or three years as a lawyers, and the partners acted like that was slouching. The real ambitious young associates were putting in 80 hour weeks. These souless zombies had their eyes on the prize, to make partner. There are people who go to work for these big firms whose sole purpose in life is to make partner. They are there seven days a week, and late at night, whether they need to be or not. Freaks.
At plaintiff's firms with contingency fee cases, it is not about the hours, but the results. So, if you are an efficient, smart worker, you may be able to make a good impression on fewer hours. However, the partners at successful plaintiff's firms tend to be just as big a workoholic as their defense counterparts.
If you really must have a normal, 40 hour work week as you start out your career, I think finding a match at a private firm is going to be tough.
That's all doom and gloom, right?
Well, maybe a very small firm will be the place to look, especially if they are paying you by the hour. They are the ones who are often receptive to shorter hours, in exchange for their lower pay scales. And if they pay by the hour, they may not even want you to work more than 40 hours.
Congrats on passing the Cal Bar, that's a day you will never forget, I remember it well when I passed that bar, and that was 12 years ago.
Good luck. -
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Re: Shouting it from the mountain!
Mon, December 3, 2007 - 11:06 AMThanks for the insight and the encouragement.
I am definitely not a freak who is into making partner, but I definitely am an efficient and effective worker who gets results.
If any of your colleagues are looking for someone like me, let me know. I am trying to network as best I can, but I have very few "ins" with the legal community besides joining up with Queen's Bench, Nat'l Lawyers Guild, and the SF Bar Assoc.
I am working as a legal assistant right now and watching good old craigslist like a hawk.
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Re: Shouting it from the mountain!
Mon, December 3, 2007 - 2:46 PMI recently passed the MA Bar, and I have to say that Craigslist hasn't been much of a help in the job search. While I am still looking for work (Business and intellectual property work if anyone has suggestions), I'd expect you may have better luck using other websites that are more oriented to law, and maybe the particular flavor of law if you've chosen it. Having worked summers at the USPTO, I've been using websites such as the AIPLA, INTA, and state-specific law sites. Craigslist rarely fails, but in this instance you might want to look at some other sources. Also, since I'm taking the CA exam in February, if you want to let me know what kinds of work you're looking for I'd be happy to forward relevant jobs along while I'm doing my own hunt. Take care. -
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Re: Shouting it from the mountain!
Tue, December 4, 2007 - 11:21 PMDave, I see lots of postings for Business and IP jobs on bcgsearch.com/
There is tons of work in IP (intellectual property) in the Palo Alto and Silicon Valley area, as you probably know.
Google tends to post on yahoohotjobs (ironic!) and monster, and there are frequently corporate counsel-type opportunities.
Its ironic that you are in MA where there are jobs I am interested in www.consumerlaw.org/jobs/con...ty.shtml, while I am in CA with all the IP job opps!
I do see LOTS of postings on craigslist for the TYPES of jobs I am interested in. The problem is, I don't have a lot of good resources for sniffing out what the climate at some of these firms is like, who I should pursue, and etc. Smaller firms (which I am apparently being pointed at) are especially hard to find and most often hire you based on a personal connection.
It is all about WHO you know. Like I said, I don't have many connections in my legal area of interest. I have lots of PI (personal injury law) connections though, if anyone out there is interested in that!
P.S. I got sworn in today! :) Judge Armstrong from the 9th Cir. gave us an amazing speech that brought tears to my eyes.
I am selling my Bar/Bri and PMBR materials, if you are interested. -
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Re: Shouting it from the mountain!
Wed, December 5, 2007 - 6:22 PMHey Myrrhia. What types of jobs are you interested in? I wish you'd mailed me directly about the Barbri books. I just purchased an incomplete set out of something akin to desperation and would've been happier getting the complete set. I'm definitely agreeing with you about the importance of connections. Unfortunately, I come from a family of doctors, so no help there. All I can say is best of luck and congratulations on passing one of the harder exams in the country. -
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Re: Shouting it from the mountain!
Fri, December 7, 2007 - 3:32 PMAw. Sorry I missed it!
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Re: Shouting it from the mountain!
Thu, December 6, 2007 - 12:18 AMIf you have the time, I'd suggest applying and interviewing at these places that might interest you. That'll help you figure out the firm culture, and give you a general overview of the types you want to be pursuing. And it may network you into someone who can help you out more. Remember it is a two-way street: If you don't like what you see, you can always tell them no.
ps.: Judge Armstrong is a (rocking!) district judge, not a circuit judge:
www.cand.uscourts.gov/cand/ju...005f0798 -
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Re: Shouting it from the mountain!
Fri, December 7, 2007 - 3:31 PMThanks for the correction. I don't know how that got into my head.
I don't know what she is like on the bench, but she was great at the ceremony.
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